Talking To Godfrey Birtill about intercessory worship

[Viewings: 135]

[This article was taken from the Jesus Life magazine, and was first published in May 2005.]

Godfrey Birtill is a song writer and worship leader. Many of his songs have a prophetic edge, uniquely combining worship and intercession and are connected with 'grass roots' city prayer gatherings. Godfrey lives in Lincoln and is based at New Life Church and is also an associate of Pioneer. He is married to Gill and they have four children.

In this interview he talks to Huw Lewis, editor of Jesus Life and member of the Apostolic Team of the Jesus Fellowship.

HUW: Can you tell us about your spiritual journey?

Godfrey: I was born in Chorley, Lancashire and as a young lad went to the local Methodist church. I was also an altar boy in the Anglican church, but I didn't actually know the Lord. In my teens I went off track and got involved with rock bands - not a particularly wholesome lifestyle.

Were you a keen musician then?

Yes. I started playing guitar when I was about 14. In 1979 I'd hit rock bottom within the band scene and I was in a mess. I remember stopping to listen to a street preacher in Chorley town centre. Everything he was saying made sense. I walked away a different person! I took a booklet away and at home in my bedroom made a prayer of commitment on my own. I went along to a brethren church but no one really talked to me and it all felt a bit strange. I'd made a commitment not really knowing what I'd done. I desperately needed discipleship, but it just didn't happen. In a way I was still-born! Time went on and I married Gill, who had an eight year old son. We moved to Wales and I got a job as a press photographer.

Was she a Christian?

She wasn't at that time. My lifestyle wasn't particularly godly - I was drinking too much whisky! We went to a local Parish church, but it was as cold as ice and we didn't feel welcome. Afterwards, we moved to Derby and my stepson started going to a church youth club. A group of them went to Spring Harvest and he came back with some magazines and tracts. As I was looking at them when he'd gone to bed, I saw these people with hands raised and I remember saying to Gill that they were all brainwashed and crazy. I didn't know at this time that Gill had read one of the tracts and made a commitment to Jesus. She asked me, 'Don't you believe in this then?' I said, 'No, I don't believe.'

What brought you back to faith in Jesus?

During that night I woke up in a sweat, on my hands and knees. It was pitch black, like being cut off from any love that I'd ever known. I was in a place where there was absolutely no love and it was terrifying. I saw, in a vision, a luminous kind of rope going up and its strands were breaking. I cried out in desperation. I was so relieved when morning came and thought, 'I've got to go and get a Bible'. I went into Derby and got the Good News Bible. I sat in the front seat of the car, opened it up and read a Psalm - I can't remember which one - but it really hit me like I'd never read scripture before. As I looked up there was this traffic warden walking towards me, and she had a really evil, mean face. She came up to me, her eyes like fire, poked a finger at me and said, 'You were just in time!' It shot me into the stratosphere of understanding that there's something beyond the physical. I suddenly recognised there was another dynamic - a spiritual dynamic - and that the rope was a taste of separation from God, and that 'just in time' I was rescued. Years later, a friend showed me the scripture in Ecclesiastes which says, 'Remember your Creator before the silver cord is severed.' I believe it was the silver cord I saw in the vision. From there on it was initially very tough as there was a battle on for my mind - I thought I was losing it. But the Lord brought me to a place of stability. I got involved with a local Methodist church and I began to understand what Jesus had done for me on the cross - that He took all my sin, He died in my place, that I couldn't earn salvation, no matter how good I thought I was. One of the things that came to me was that it was outrageous! He did it for me and praise God that He did! Something happened in my spirit and I knew that I couldn't turn away from Jesus.

How did you then begin to develop your ministry of worship/song writing?

It must have been around 1988. The church that I went to didn't really involve me in worship. When I think back it was wise that they didn't because it would have been a dangerous thing to put me too early in to leading worship. We need to mature, spiritually, and get to know who we're worshiping before we start leading people in worship. Then we moved to Preston with my job as a press photographer. I was involved in the worship band a little at a church there, and then the pastor at this church said, 'you've got a gifting there', and encouraged me in it. One day he asked me to lead the worship. I'd never been given so much responsibility and remember the congregation feeling like a big wobbly balloon full of water as I was learning to flow with the corporate anointing! I'd written songs in the secular band but now I started to write Christian songs. I often felt my early songs were not 'proper' ones and it was a good year if I'd written two songs! I always felt that they weren't quite right and if people put their hands up it was just sympathy! I had almost ten years of that.

So it took a long while to enter into worship leading and anointed song writing?

God doesn't rush things! It's a long, long, long journey, one step at a time of learning. Increasingly, people were saying to me that when I led worship, God's presence really came. I remember going through a time of just doing the songs without a sense of anointing. But then I realised I was becoming like a folk singer, just singing songs, in a routine way. I had to know the anointing and the presence of God. On one occasion, I felt really desperate on my way home from a Sunday night meeting. As I sat in my car in the drive I was in floods of tears, saying to the Lord 'I'll give up the music ministry - I'll just hand it over to You as I can't do it without Your anointing'. And I remember hearing the Lord saying to me 'Now you can have it'. It was almost like I had to realise that to receive the anointing the gifting had to be surrendered totally to God. I'd suddenly come to a place where God had given me a gifting and I was to lay it all down before I could pick it up again, and learn to hold the anointing lightly. There's far too much just singing songs today, whereas real worship is prophetic declaration in songs and scripture and being aware of the supernatural dynamic of what we're doing. When Paul and Silas were singing in prison, the foundations of the prison shook and the doors burst open! The jailer asleep outside woke up. That's New Testament dynamism! I believe that when we sing, something happens. But as well as the anointing there has also got to be character, because you can't have the anointing and not the character. We should get as excited about the character of Jesus in our lives as we do the anointing.

After that, did you gain something new in terms of the worship/song writing ministry?

Yes. I remember going to a worship workshop in Preston with a very posh worship band in a church full of about 300 people. I wanted to learn and I sat on the front row. The leaders asked for some volunteers to come forward and improvise a song to the music. So I nervously put my hand up, but nobody else did in the whole place! I stood on a platform in front of all these people, absolutely terrified and started improvising words and melody. It was something like, 'She'll be coming round the mountain when she comes' - out of tune, completely unbiblical and sounded absolute rubbish! Even my friends on the front row disowned me. The whole thing was an embarrassment and I went and sat down and they said, 'Is there anybody else?' Nobody else had a go - I think I frightened them all off! But amazingly, within a week after that experience, suddenly the gift was released in me. I started improvising words based on reading scriptures, and melodies would start coming. I imagined God thinking, 'he hasn't got a clue, but he's not afraid to look daft in front of his mates and have a go!'

Did you receive any other encouragement?

In 1997, a prophetic leader from America, Dale Gentry, who is now a friend of mine, was speaking at Westminster at a place called Marsham Street. He was talking about breakout. I just knew I had to go. I travelled all the way from Preston. The Lord used him to unlock something that was inside me. He was speaking about that scripture: 'With my God I can leap over a wall', but when we get over the wall we go places we've never gone before (write songs we've never written before!). I received that faith breakout for myself, feeling I could go where God said I could go and do what He said I could do. One of the key things was Dale saying that the Lord had spoken to him, 'give Me the first hour of your day and I'll change your life' and I remember thinking I'd try that. My prayer life changed from that point. I'd get up in the morning and seek the Lord and I started to hear God like I'd never heard him before. I began to write words and promises down that I felt God was saying through me. The Lord was speaking to me about my songs going across the world and that I would be going to America and Africa and other places. But I didn't show them to anyone because I thought they'd laugh at me, because at that time I was afraid of flying and I was not a traveller! I've still got the books now and just about all the words have been fulfilled.

You were then beginning to find a new sense of something happening?

Yes, I came away from Marsham Street that night feeling I'd been blitzed. Something had shifted within me. Whereas before I'd write the odd song, suddenly creativity was just pouring out. I'd go to prayer meetings and I'd be writing songs while people were praying and after listening to the speaker, I'd have a song by the end of the sermon. It had gone from two songs a year to two songs a meeting! Something changed in the song writing as well. It was like the Lord had unstopped my ears. I'd be in a prayer gathering where people were crying out and I'd catch something of the heart cry of the people calling out to God and translate that sound into songs. It was like God opened my ears to the lament (grieving) of the land.

You've been described as a 'minstrel.' What does that mean?

I feel my song writing has been a continuation of my job as a press photographer. The songs are almost like photographs of what I see God is doing today. Charles Wesley expressed something of what God was saying through John Wesley's sermons. When someone is prophesying or preaching in the Spirit, my jobas a minstrel is to catch that and register it. It's about listening rather than getting good ideas.

There is quite an intercessory slant to all this. You express some of the cries, groans, and the laments of people before the Lord. How did that happen?

At first I didn't have a clue what was going on! I still have to pinch myself that anyone is even interested in my songs. At one meeting, I was singing this song while people were coming in and this person came up to me and said, 'why don't you sing that song during the meeting? What you're singing about is what we've been praying about.' And so I brought in one of these 'intercessory' songs. I was astonished at the reaction. It wasn't so much that people were singing the song, it was that the song seemed to turn people to prayer. People were groaning in response - the song was bringing intercession. Songs that are born out of intercession, encourage intercession.

That was a genuine surprise to you?

I was bemused at all this. I was terrible at school. My spelling was atrocious - and still is - I'm not an educated person. I thought that if God's going to choose someone to write songs, He'd choose someone who's bright and intelligent and is good with words and spelling. I have university students who come to me and say, 'that's a really good song' and I'm thinking, 'surely they could do better than me!' But I guess God chooses the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. When I write songs the words tend to be very raw and not well crafted, using very ordinary, everyday language.

Some of your songs are prophetic songs, which express the heart of God.

I don't see myself as a big prophet man. But I do believe that, by God's grace, He speaks through the songs. And you work with prophetic men, using your songs as a means of communicating a prophetic message - again, a bit like the Wesleys. Exactly. People like Martin Scott. I believe he's a major prophetic voice in the nation. Whenever I get to sit under his ministry, I just suddenly start hearing God and writing. I'm not sure exactly what I'm doing always, I just know God is with me and I keep it simple.

What are you really seeking to do in all this?

I'm seeking to follow the finger of God. I'm seeking to walk within my call, to do what I believe God's will is in my life. I've nearly downed tools a couple of times, but felt encouraged by the Lord saying, 'there are good things ahead.' I believe that part of my call is to be an agitator. I agitate the church. I irritate the church as well, which isn't always an easy walk because I like to be liked and some of what I do disturbs people. When I was a press photographer, I used to develop black and white photos. You need to 'agitate' the film. You put the black and white film in a tank, in a spiral and then in the developer and shake it. If you don't agitate the film, it gets highly developed in places and under-developed in others. I felt the Lord saying that part of my ministry is to agitate because the church is highly developed in some places and under-developed in other places - like the area of lament and the area of fearing the Lord.

What are you particularly challenging and disturbing?

I guess I'm an irritant within the 'cosy' worship scene. I believe I had a word from the Lord about the church needing deliverance from 'lovely times of worship'. The church has almost got addicted to having a lovely time and it's lost something of the supernatural dynamic of warfare and prophetic proclamation. Of course it's lovely to worship the Lord, but we've lost something of the battle we're engaging in when we're worshipping. I'm sure Paul and Silas didn't walk away from the prison after its foundations were shaken and the door broken, saying, 'well, that was a lovely time of worship!'

You've provoked some reactions!

One of my ancestors was a Moravian hymn writer, James Montgomery, and I remember sharing his hymn, 'Lift up your heads you gates of brass,' with a group of song writers. They said that it was too militaristic! It was an eye opener to me as to where the church is really at because these musicians were part of the mainstream. I really believe we need to be militant now, because what is happening on the earth is reflecting what's happening in the heavens. I'm a bit out of step with much of what is being produced, musically, today. Some of the songs on my most recent album, 'Dread God', about the fear of the Lord and warfare, like 'This is an emergency', are not really in the flow of the mainstream. I've even had problems with the title, 'Dread God.' I also had stick about 'Outrageous Grace' when it first came out.

You've obviously experimented with various things. I was reading about your 'Night of the Thousand Drums' and your work with ethnic groups.

I've worked with Navaho Indians. I got an email from a Navaho reservation saying that they'd picked up the 'Outrageous Grace' album off the internet and were singing it on the reservation and asked if I'd come over. So I checked them out and went over there with my wife, Gill and youngest son, Jacob. It was amazing on their reservation. Their sense of lament over the land was very powerful. I encouraged them to write their own songs and wrote one with them prophesying to the place where they live! They'd never written songs before, but now they've written about 20 of them. Part of what I do as I travel round is to impart song writing creativity. These are songs written by indigenous groups for their own areas and cities, that will have more cut than a Vineyard song or a Hillsongs song - they'll be unique for their location. I want to encourage others to write and be expressive and creative in their worship. All the places that I go to have been opened up by the Lord. I never request to go anywhere. God puts order in my diary, though I occasionally get it wrong. All I want to do is what God wants me to do and just continue in that. If the Lord said, 'pull the plug on it,' I will do. But I must admit, I do enjoy it. I love serving the Lord. The Lord's equipped us as a family and Gill copes with it really well. She encourages me and is completely behind me in what I'm doing. She's a great song taster as well and she's a wild prayer warrior! Whenever I write a song I play it to her and if she says, 'that's a nice song,' it means, 'file it in the bin!' She doesn't like 'nice' songs.

It must have been difficult to keep raw and cutting, rather than becoming part of the music industry?

I've been approached by music companies and there was one time when it was very tempting, but I felt I'd lose my call and anointing if I went down that road at that time. However, a few months ago I felt the Lord saying that the songs are going to be brought into the mainstream. This year's Spring Harvest song book has got eight of my songs. But I am not seeking to be a famous worship leader, I'm just staying within my call, following Jesus.

Are there other directions your ministry is taking? You did do something in partnership with 'Betel UK' - how did that come about?

They are a group that help people off the streets - mostly, heroin addicts, prostitutes and the homeless. They prefer to say they are church planters, rather than a rehab and are seeing lives radically transformed by the power of the gospel. I have always had a heart to work with the outcasts. When I lived in Preston I used to go to the night shelter and sing and try and build relationships. I'd heard that they were singing some of my songs and they use one of my songs like an anthem - 'If it wasn't for the blood I'd be dead.' They asked if I could go along and play and I found them very dynamic. It's the same as the Jesus Army - people that carry the fire and the passion for Jesus.

Do you do much in the local church here - New Life Church which is part of Ground Level?

Once a month I lead a worship and intercession event in the city called 'Spring up all Wells'. It is worship and intercession with a city focus. I lead the worship in the church on Sunday every now and again. The local church is important. There's a danger you can just spin off if you haven't got a home somewhere and I really value the accountability. I remember when I was young in the Lord some of the old Methodist brothers urging me always to make sure I had someone older than me in the Lord to follow, who I could share with deeply and bounce ideas off. I found that to be good advice. For example, at the moment I'm talking to a theologian about my songs to make sure I'm not completely off the wall!

Who are the main influences that have shaped you, spiritually, over the years?

When I discovered my Moravian ancestors with their prayer and intercession focus, something fell into place. Martin Scott and Dale Gentry have been big influences, spiritually. I really look up to my pastor, Stuart Bell. I see him as a man who's filled with the Holy Spirit and of good character and open to whatever God wants to do.

What do you sense God is saying to the nation at the moment?

There is a sense of it being a pivotal moment in the nation. We need to catch the fear of the Lord again. I think we're in a state of emergency as a nation. My new CD is called, 'God Help Us', named after a song I've written on our social, moral and spiritual crisis. If you stand against the tide you get ridiculed, like Mary Whitehouse. It really is wake up time for the UK.

You're an agitator and a minstrel. What other areas of ministry do you have?

Serving the Lord is first in my life and then seeking to be a good husband and father. If I had a report on the latter, I feel it would say, 'could do better.' I am blessed with a wonderful wife and four wonderful children. I also hope to be an encouragement as well. I believe whatever God gives us, it's for sharing and to edify the body of Christ and see His kingdom come and His will be done throughout the earth as it is in heaven.

Walking back to Happiness: Helen Shapiro

[Viewings: 128]

I was raised in a warm, musical, traditional Jewish family in the heart of a large Jewish community in Hackney, in the East End of London. Our extended family, although not a very orthodox group, was nevertheless totally Jewish in identity and heritage. My first recollections include wonderful annual festivals such as Passover, plus traditional rituals such as the lighting of candles on a Friday evening to welcome Shobbes (Shabbat).

I suppose I believed in God from my earliest days. I took His existence for granted. The State school I attended taught the Bible and I loved the Bible stories very much. However, because my school had a Jewish Headmaster and a large Jewish contingency among the pupils, we Jewish kids had separate R.E. (religious education) classes and assemblies. As a consequence, I never heard of a New Testament or a Jesus until I was around six years of age. One day, a non-Jewish girl came up to me in the playground in quite some distress and blurted out, "You killed Jesus Christ!". I was devastated and confused by this accusation. I had never killed anyone in my life, and who was this person with the strange name, Jesus Christ?

At 14, while still at school, I had my first hit record. That led me to go into show business, travelling the world, singing at many famous venues and having more hit songs, including 'Walking Back to Happiness'. I was carried along by all the fame, meeting celebrities and royalty and didn't give much thought to spiritual things until the late sixties. At that time, it seemed that everyone was searching for the "meaning of life". It was the 'hippie' era. Thankfully, I did not become involved with drugs or cults. However, members of my family had taken to visiting mediums, clairvoyants and other such folk to make contact (as they thought) with relatives who had died. Having always had a curiosity with life-after-death issues, this fascinated me. I began to visit such people myself, on occasion. I also started to read books and magazines about spiritism, Buddhism and all kinds of psychic phenomena. I developed a system of beliefs, over the years, which incorporated a little bit of this, a little bit of that - a smorgasbord of 'isms' which, these days, would be called 'New Age'. To my own way of thinking, I was not remotely involved in anything evil or sinister. I associated everything I


Helen Shapiro today

Helen joins the Beatles, Dusty Springfield and host Keith Fordyce on Ready, Steady, Go! in October 1963

EMPTINESS

For quite a number of years, I was comforted by what I had discovered. It seemed to fill a void in my life - until I turned 40. A few months after this milestone birthday, I woke up one morning and, to my own great surprise, I found I no longer believed in any of my 'New Age' ideas. It's hard to explain,
but my belief in the supernatural had vanished overnight. Try as I might, I could not believe in any of my 'isms' any more. This presented a dilemma for me as I had always equated all my beliefs with God. Did this mean that there was no God? I found the whole thing very depressing. For the first time in
my life, I had nothing to believe in. My Jazz and Pop career was going well. I was in a relationship with the man who is now my husband. I was successful, but inside I was empty. Looking back, I can see that this was God's hand.

In those days, my musical director was a man called Bob Cranham. He was a Christian and more than once he had spoken of what his 'Lord' had done in his life. These were wonderful things, but I couldn't consider them for myself because I am Jewish. This was the Gentile God blessing His people. In the midst of my turmoil, I called in at his house one day, to pick up some music. Now, neither Bob nor his wife knew anything of my inner struggle. Nobody did.

Bob dropped a bombshell that day. He said, "I'm thinking of giving up the music business." I asked him why. He said, "Because I believe God wants me to be a preacher." I thought to myself, "Oh dear. He thinks he's hearing from God." Here was a professional, sane and sensible top-quality musician, composer, song-writer, producer - and he's talking about giving up everything. Nothing I could say would sway him. He seemed so calm and sure and so willing to take this drastic step, if, as he believed, God wanted it. I found myself becoming more and more impressed by how real and sincere his faith must be if he could surrender all that for his 'Lord'. I went home and told my boyfriend John how much I envied Bob. I had many opinions, but Bob had real convictions. I wanted what he had! I guess I was 'provoked to jealousy'.

I started to think about this Jesus constantly. I couldn't get Him out of my mind. Finally, I lay awake one night and felt that I had nothing to lose. I whispered, "Jesus??" I didn't know if I was going to be struck by lightning. "Are you really there? Are you really the Messiah? If you are, I want to know.
Please show me." ( I might as well mention that I had always believed that Jesus existed historically and that he was a Jew. I had never been able to equate the Jewish Jesus with the very un-Jewish artistic depictions of him - blond hair, blue eyes, etc.) Nothing seemed to happen in my room that night, but in the weeks that followed, it seemed that everywhere I went, I was bumping into things and people connected with this Jesus.

While all this was going on, my band and I came back from doing a concert in Germany. When we arrived at the airport and were saying our farewells until the next gig, Bob, my musical director, handed me a book. I was surprised to see that the cover was a picture of a Menorah (a seven-branched lampstand). The title of the book was, "Betrayed", written by Stan Telchin. The sub-title, in effect, said "How would you feel as a successful 50-year-old, Jewish businessman if your daughter one day told you she believed in Jesus!" "How did Bob know I was searching?!", I thought to myself. Of course, he didn't know. Nobody knew.

The book was a total shock. I had heard about the odd Jewish person believing in Jesus, but I had dismissed them all as weirdoes and cranks. Here was a book by a normal, successful Jewish businessman who believed in Jesus and I couldn't ignore it. Outwardly, I showed no emotion. "OK, I'll read it", I said casually. My heart was thumping inside. I couldn't wait to read it. I found out later that Bob had wanted to give me the book for over a year, but the time had never seemed right - until now. How timely that book was.

It took me only a couple of hours to finish it. Stan Telchin was a pillar of the Jewish community in Washington D.C., successful in insurance, and a member of different Jewish organisations and committees. One day his daughter announced that she had accepted Jesus as her Messiah. After his initial shock and anger wore off, he set out to prove her wrong. He spent months talking to Rabbis, pastors, Jewish believers, Gentile believers, reading the Old and New Testaments, Church history, Jewish history, you name it! After all that, he ended up becoming a believer in Jesus, as did every member of his family, who went off to search for themselves.

I learned a great deal from reading this book. Most fascinating of all were the Messianic prophecies he listed. These are prophecies about the Messiah which are found in the Old Testament; the Tenach. I had never heard of them before. Now I learned that in the Law, the Prophets and the Writings there were dozens of specific predictions about a coming Messiah. I had known and loved the 'hit' stories in the Old Testament about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Daniel, etc. And I knew that we, the Jewish people, had been promised the Messiah, but I never knew about these many, specific written prophecies.

For example, Stan spoke about Isaiah 9:6, where it's written "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given". I had always thought that verse was in the New Testament as I'd only ever seen it on Christmas cards. But there it was in Isaiah! One of ours! This verse goes on to say that this child would be called "wonderful, counsellor, mighty God, everlasting Father, prince of peace." Mighty God! Is the prophet saying that the Messiah has to be God, somehow?

Then Stan quotes Isaiah 7:14, which states that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. I had always thought that talk of a virgin birth was most un-Jewish, but there it was in Isaiah, the Jewish prophet.

He also listed Micah 5:2, a verse from one of the so-called 'minor prophets', which speaks of the Messiah being born in Bethlehem, even though he was also from eternity.

This was amazing enough until I read Psalm 22. It begins with the words "Eli, Eli, lama azavtani", which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" I had seen enough films about Jesus to know that He cried these words out when He hung on the cross. What I didn't know was that the rest of the Psalm follows on to say "they have pierced my hands and my feet?I can count all my bones?they have divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing". It seemed to be a picture of the crucifixion of Jesus. But how could it be? This Psalm was written 1000 years before Jesus and before crucifixion was even invented!

Finally, I came face to face with Isaiah 53, the whole of which chapter speaks about one who is to come and take upon himself our sins and our punishment. "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement for our peace was upon Him and with His stripes we are healed. All we, like sheep, have gone astray, each one of us has turned to his own way and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." It seemed to be speaking about Jesus!

All of these prophecies seemed to be painting a picture that I wasn't sure I wanted to see. How come nobody ever showed me these things before? How come all I got was 'You Killed Jesus Christ!'?

I had to find out if these things were really in the Bible. I had to go and buy one. Where do you go to buy a Bible? W.H. Smith's, of course! I went into their 'religious' section and was confronted with row upon row of Bibles! All shapes and sizes and types. Which one should I buy? There were so many to choose from. Why were there so many? After a long, careful search, I finally selected what seemed to be a straightforward choice - it was called 'The Bible'.

I took it home, opened up to the Old Testament, and there they were: prophecies about the Messiah! Dozens of them, speaking of him coming both as suffering servant and victorious king. They all pointed, it seemed to me, to Jesus. Could it really be true? I had come this far - I couldn't go back now. I had to go on. With trepidation, I opened, for the first time in my life, that forbidden book: The New Testament.

I didn't know what to expect. Would it be full of anti-Semitic poison? After all, look at what has been done against the Jews over the centuries in the name of Christ, by those claiming to be Christians. We figure they must get it from 'their book'.

Imagine my surprise when I opened up the New Testament and was greeted by the most Jewish thing I had seen outside of the Old Testament: the genealogy of Jesus. Not only was I unexpectedly greeted by a list of familiar names, but while reading Stan's book, I had learned that the Messiah had to be descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, had to be from the tribe of Judah and of the royal house of David. That was just for starters. All these names were there, and many, many more, in this impeccable lineage of Jesus.

I discovered that the writers of the New Testament were Jewish too. I had always thought that James, Peter and John and co. were Englishmen. To my mind, they couldn't be anything else, with names like that! But I discovered that James was, in fact, Jacob; John was Yochanan; Mary was Miriam; Matthew was Mattityahu; Jesus is Yeshua, which means 'Salvation'! The New Testament is Jewish!

Greatly comforted, I began reading about these people, living in the Land of Israel, according to the Law of Moses. There was a Temple and a priesthood - it was a continuation of the Old Testament. I didn't expect it to be like that. And then, there was Jesus. He seemed to rise up out of the pages to me. I was drawn to Him: His words, His compassion, His miracles, His fulfilment of prophecy, his arrest and trial, His crucifixion and resurrection. I finished the Gospel of Matthew and had read halfway through the Gospel of Mark when the thought struck me that I was being too gullible and easily persuaded. It all seemed too perfect. This Bible, including the Old Testament was, after all, translated by Christians. Maybe they had slanted it towards their way of thinking. I had to be sure. I had to get a 'proper' Bible - a Jewish Bible.

I went to a little Jewish shop in Ilford that sold Judaica in the form of books, cards, religious clothing, etc. I was confronted yet again by wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling books. I stood there for what seemed an age, unable to find what I was looking for. The shopkeeper finally came over to me and asked, "May I help you?" "Yes." I replied, "I'd like an Old Testament, please." "How Old?" he asked. How embarrassed I felt! I realised my mistake: you don't go into a Jewish shop and ask for an Old Testament. There is no such thing as an Old Testament because there is no such thing as a New Testament. "You know what I mean!" I said. Of course he did. He reached up to a top shelf and brought down a book. "This is what you're looking for," he said.

It was a copy of the Tenach, The Holy Scriptures. I got it home and compared it with the Old Testament in my other Bible from W.H. Smiths - and it was the same. I was so relieved. I was hoping it would be so.

I continued reading the New Testament. By the time I had read all four Gospels, I knew that Jesus was the fulfilment of all the Messianic prophecies. Jesus was and is the Messiah! This was the most wonderful realisation! But what do I do? This was controversial!

I telephoned Bob and said, "I think I'm on the verge of becoming a believer." He and his wife asked me over. I had so many questions. One of my main questions was to do with all my old smorgasbord of beliefs: where does God fit in with them? The answer is: He doesn't. Bob showed me from Deuteronomy, right through to Revelation that all those things are an abomination to God and come under the heading of Occult. I learned that I had to repent of and renounce all of those practices.

I told Bob and his wife that I believed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God and God the Son. I believed that He died on the cross, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day. I believed, but I still needed to understand Why?

They showed me in the Bible, particularly in the letter to the Hebrews, how Jesus was the fulfilment of the sacrificial system, instituted by God when He brought the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt. Whenever God's Law was broken, He graciously provided that atonement could be made by the shedding of the blood of an innocent substitute. We have all, Jews and Gentiles, broken God's law and are under His condemnation and are deserving of His punishment. He still requires the shedding of blood. None of our good works or religious rituals can make us right with God.

Thankfully, we don't have to slaughter animals for sacrifice anymore because all of those sacrifices were fulfilled in the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. He was the perfect Lamb of God. The moment He died on the cross, when He called out, "It is finished", the curtain in the Temple that divided the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies was torn in half, from top to bottom. Jesus has paid the penalty for sin and all those who repent and believe in Him can come into the presence of God as a cleansed and forgiven worshipper.

They explained that I needed to repent - to turn from my sin back to God. I learned that I was a sinner. We all are. Bob asked me if I would like to respond by praying and asking God to forgive me on the basis of what Jesus has done. Only He can forgive me and only the Blood of Jesus can atone for me. I could then commit my life to Him as my Lord and Saviour.

This I joyfully did on August 26th, 1987 at 10:30 pm. Even though there were no thunderbolts or flashes of lightning, I knew that my prayer was answered. I can't explain how I knew - I just did. It was all so real and true.

During my search, I had begun to wonder: if I accepted the claims of Jesus and became His follower, would I still be Jewish? Along the way, I had written to Stan Telchin along these lines. He assured me that I would be fulfilling my Jewishness by believing in Jesus, the Messiah of Israel and that I would be coming back to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

What he said was true. The very reason that God created the Jewish nation was to point to the Messiah. This is the purpose of every Jew. I, along with many others, are fulfilling that very purpose by receiving Jesus as Messiah, Lord and Saviour.

Since repenting of my sins and receiving Yeshua - Jesus - I know that I have come out from under the condemnation of the Law: eternal separation from God and eternal punishment. We have all, Jew and Gentile, broken the 10 Commandments and are all guilty. Only by faith in the perfect sacrifice of Messiah Jesus can we be saved. I urge you to search the Scriptures and find out for yourself.

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Bono Interview: Grace over Karma

Excerpt from the book Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas

[Viewings: 157]

Bono:  My understanding of the Scriptures has been made simple by the person of Christ. Christ teaches that God is love. What does that mean? What it means for me: a study of the life of Christ. Love here describes itself as a child born in straw poverty, the most vulnerable situation of all, without honor. I don't let my religious world get too complicated. I just kind of go: Well, I think I know what God is. God is love, and as much as I respond [sighs] in allowing myself to be transformed by that love and acting in that love, that's my religion. Where things get complicated for me, is when I try to live this love. Now that's not so easy.

Assayas: What about the God of the Old Testament? He wasn't so "peace and love"?

Bono: There's nothing hippie about my picture of Christ. The Gospels paint a picture of a very demanding, sometimes divisive love, but love it is. I accept the Old Testament as more of an action movie: blood, car chases, evacuations, a lot of special effects, seas dividing, mass murder, adultery. The children of God are running amok, wayward. Maybe that's why they're so relatable. But the way we would see it, those of us who are trying to figure out our Christian conundrum, is that the God of the Old Testament is like the journey from stern father to friend. When you're a child, you need clear directions and some strict rules. But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the Cross. Assayas: Speaking of bloody action movies, we were talking about South and Central America last time. The Jesuit priests arrived there with the gospel in one hand and a rifle in the other. Bono: I know, I know. Religion can be the enemy of God. It's often what happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building. [laughs] A list of instructions where there was once conviction; dogma where once people just did it; a congregation led by a man where once they were led by the Holy Spirit. Discipline replacing discipleship. Why are you chuckling?

Assayas: I was wondering if you said all of that to the Pope the day you met him.

Bono: Let's not get too hard on the Holy Roman Church here. The Church has its problems, but the older I get, the more comfort I find there. The physical experience of being in a crowd of largely humble people, heads bowed, murmuring prayers, stories told in stained-glass windows

Assayas: So you won't be critical.

Bono: No, I can be critical, especially on the topic of contraception. But when I meet someone like Sister Benedicta and see her work with AIDS orphans in Addis Ababa, or Sister Ann doing the same in Malawi, or Father Jack Fenukan and his group Concern all over Africa, when I meet priests and nuns tending to the sick and the poor and giving up much easier lives to do so, I surrender a little easier.

Assayas: But you met the man himself. Was it a great experience?

Bono: [W]e all knew why we were there. The Pontiff was about to make an important statement about the inhumanity and injustice of poor countries spending so much of their national income paying back old loans to rich countries. Serious business. He was fighting hard against his Parkinson's. It was clearly an act of will for him to be there. I was oddly moved by his humility, and then by the incredible speech he made, even if it was in whispers. During the preamble, he seemed to be staring at me. I wondered. Was it the fact that I was wearing my blue fly-shades? So I took them off in case I was causing some offense. When I was introduced to him, he was still staring at them. He kept looking at them in my hand, so I offered them to him as a gift in return for the rosary he had just given me.

Assayas: Didn't he put them on?

Bono: Not only did he put them on, he smiled the wickedest grin you could ever imagine. He was a comedian. His sense of humor was completely intact. Flashbulbs popped, and I thought: "Wow! The Drop the Debt campaign will have the Pope in my glasses on the front page of every newspaper."

Assayas: I don't remember seeing that photograph anywhere, though.

Bono: Nor did we. It seems his courtiers did not have the same sense of humor. Fair enough. I guess they could see the T-shirts. Later in the conversation: Assayas: I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have started acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that? Bono: Yes, I think that's normal. It's a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma.

Assayas: I haven't heard you talk about that.

Bono: I really believe we've moved out of the realm of Karma into one of Grace. Assayas: Well, that doesn't make it clearer for me. Bono: You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics; in physical laws every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I'm absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that "as you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff.

Assayas: I'd be interested to hear that.

Bono: That's between me and God. But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge. I'd be in deep s---. It doesn't excuse my mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity. Assayas: The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that. Bono: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says: Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to selfishness, and there's a mortality as part of your very sinful nature, and, let's face it, you're not living a very good life, are you? There are consequences to actions. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That's the point. It should keep us humbled . It's not our own good works that get us through the gates of heaven.

Assayas: That's a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful, even though it's close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has his rank among the world's great thinkers. But Son of God, isn't that farfetched?

Bono: No, it's not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says: No. I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: "I'm the Messiah." I'm saying: "I am God incarnate." And people say: No, no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet, we can take. You're a bit eccentric. We've had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we can handle that. But don't mention the "M" word! Because, you know, we're gonna have to crucify you. And he goes: No, no. I know you're expecting me to come back with an army, and set you free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah. At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says: Oh, my God, he's gonna keep saying this. So what you're left with is: either Christ was who He said He was the Messiah or a complete nutcase. I mean, we're talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson. This man was like some of the people we've been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb, and had "King of the Jews" on his head, and, as they were putting him up on the Cross, was going: OK, martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it. I'm not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me, that's farfetched Bono later says it all comes down to how we regard Jesus: Bono: If only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. When I look at the Cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my s--- and everybody else's. So I ask myself a question a lot of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was He just a religious nut?